EagerDragon
Aug 26, 10:01 AM
I'm the same way. I have had .mac since way back when it was "Free for Life" and I just have gotten used to keeping it. I also keep thinking that ole Jobs and company are going to come up with the killer .mac app that will make .mac indespensible.
I'm still waiting...
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I'm still waiting...
iGary
Aug 5, 05:15 PM
iMac - No.
iPod - No.
MacBook - No.
MacBook Pro - No.
MacPro - Yes.
Xserve - Yes.
Displays - Yes.
Leopard Preview - Yes.
iPhone - Ha ha ha ha ha ha.
iPod - No.
MacBook - No.
MacBook Pro - No.
MacPro - Yes.
Xserve - Yes.
Displays - Yes.
Leopard Preview - Yes.
iPhone - Ha ha ha ha ha ha.
Blue Velvet
Mar 22, 11:40 PM
Right, because there can't be any other reason why Blue Velvet, or myself, might support military intervention in Libya, but not Iraq. They are exactly the same situation after all.
Although I backed the implementation of a no-fly zone a few weeks ago, I wouldn't describe my position as one of wholehearted support. More a queasy half-hearted recognition that something had to be done and that all alternatives lead to rabbit holes of some degree or another. When all is said and done, my usual fallback position is an intense weariness at the evil that men do.
For the record, I actually supported (if silence is considered consent) both Gulf wars at the start; I believed in the fictional WMD, I believed it when Colin Powell held his little vial up at the UN... but I, like many was tied down with work and other concerns and was only paying cursory attention to the news at the time. Like Obama, I also initially supported the war in Afghanistan, or at least the idea of it, initiated by a Republican president, but since then it seems to have become a fiasco of Catch-22 proportions.
Slowly discovering the real agenda and true ineptness of the Bush administration was a pivotal point in my reawakening political understanding of US current affairs after reading Hunter Thompson for so many years. Disgusted and appalled at the casual way in which we all were lied to, I'm quite happy to hold my hands up and say 'I was wrong'.
Thing is about Obama, I never had any starry-eyed notion about him being a peace-maker. He's an American president, the incentives are cemented into the role as one of using power and protecting wealth. Not that many conservatives were paying attention at the time, but he stood up in front of the Nobel academy when accepting his Nobel Peace Prize and laid out a justification for war.
Since the second Gulf War, the entire circus has been one of my occasional interests, because I've never seen a political process elsewhere riddled with so many bald-faced liars, grotesque characters and half-baked casual hate speech. What power or the sniff of it does to people, twisting them out of shape, is infinitely more interesting and has more impact on us than any other endeavour, except for possibly the parallel development of technology.
George W. Bush is responsible for another calamity: me posting in PRSI, one of my many occasional weaknesses.
Although I backed the implementation of a no-fly zone a few weeks ago, I wouldn't describe my position as one of wholehearted support. More a queasy half-hearted recognition that something had to be done and that all alternatives lead to rabbit holes of some degree or another. When all is said and done, my usual fallback position is an intense weariness at the evil that men do.
For the record, I actually supported (if silence is considered consent) both Gulf wars at the start; I believed in the fictional WMD, I believed it when Colin Powell held his little vial up at the UN... but I, like many was tied down with work and other concerns and was only paying cursory attention to the news at the time. Like Obama, I also initially supported the war in Afghanistan, or at least the idea of it, initiated by a Republican president, but since then it seems to have become a fiasco of Catch-22 proportions.
Slowly discovering the real agenda and true ineptness of the Bush administration was a pivotal point in my reawakening political understanding of US current affairs after reading Hunter Thompson for so many years. Disgusted and appalled at the casual way in which we all were lied to, I'm quite happy to hold my hands up and say 'I was wrong'.
Thing is about Obama, I never had any starry-eyed notion about him being a peace-maker. He's an American president, the incentives are cemented into the role as one of using power and protecting wealth. Not that many conservatives were paying attention at the time, but he stood up in front of the Nobel academy when accepting his Nobel Peace Prize and laid out a justification for war.
Since the second Gulf War, the entire circus has been one of my occasional interests, because I've never seen a political process elsewhere riddled with so many bald-faced liars, grotesque characters and half-baked casual hate speech. What power or the sniff of it does to people, twisting them out of shape, is infinitely more interesting and has more impact on us than any other endeavour, except for possibly the parallel development of technology.
George W. Bush is responsible for another calamity: me posting in PRSI, one of my many occasional weaknesses.
fivepoint
Apr 27, 02:57 PM
EDIT: They probably DO want the controversy to continue! If I was in his shoes I would be eating it up. Every story on a right-wing birther makes the centerists even more alienated from the right.
I think it's definitely a political 'win' for him... that much is for sure. Just one of the many reasons I've been saying to let the issue die for a long time, although I always thought the best way to do it would be for him to just release the damn thing. Then he does it, and this crap happens.
do you even know who generated the PDF? Perhaps the state of Hawaii set up an editable blank form for their use?
Probably someone in Hawaii originally.
could be you 2 are using different version of Illustrator or have different settings on them.
I have only played with Illustrator/ photohop ect but I would not be surprised that it could automatically being doing that when you open the file trying to detected Text and signatures and giving you the ability to remove/move them easily for editing purposes.
Hell I while I was working I scanned in a document and used software to pull of my signature and save it so i could easily attached it to other documents I was emailing out. Mind you some security got embeded in the file when I was putting it on other PDFs.
could be any number of reasons.
Naw, it's far more likely that I'm a liar.
You said you opened the file in Indesign which is what sparked my interest, because that's something you can't technically do. We've already established long ago that you're untrustworthy, so it's fair to be suspicious.
Sure there are. Been designing since before you were born. This file does not have layers. It has objects within one group. A document created in 1961 will have been scanned, possible inadvertently split into sections as it's not even a linked group or even a compound path. MattSepata is correct to some extent, but I doubt it's been OCRed. Just a crappily-made PDF... which hasn't even been security-locked.
Nice try, but no cookie, Sherlock.
WTF are you talking about? I'm not 'trying' anything. You're just pointing out how ignorant and blinded by bias you really are by your attacks on me. I specifically made the post so that someone could explain it to the rest of us, after specifically explaining I thought there was almost certainly a reasonable explanation. You see what you want to see, nothing more. Amazing that anyone ever wonders why conservatives never stay around these parts, your level of debate is at rock bottom. Amusing, but sad as always, Blue.
To help 5P understand: Government can not do anything right, not even scan a document and make a lousy secured PDF :p:p
;) Clearly.
Is there an explanation for why it matters to you and all the birthers who buy into this nonsense? I'd love to know which right-wing website had instructions for birthers wanting to "test" the image in Illustrator. It's pretty obvious you were following some fringe-website instructions. I highly doubt you just "happened" to open it in Illustrator and then do whatever. I mean, you aren't a graphic designer.
Buy into what nonsense? What did I BUY into? I simply asked so that I would know. I guess asking logical questions makes you a raging bible-thumping birther neo con. ;) Also, Inever said I 'happened' top open it in Illustrator. I saw it on Drudge, and thought to myself... 'no way, they wouldn't make that big of a mistake' meaning, give the birthers such obvious ammunition... so I tested it myself. Thanks for pointing out your same sick desire to twist everything I say just like Lee and Blue.
I think it's definitely a political 'win' for him... that much is for sure. Just one of the many reasons I've been saying to let the issue die for a long time, although I always thought the best way to do it would be for him to just release the damn thing. Then he does it, and this crap happens.
do you even know who generated the PDF? Perhaps the state of Hawaii set up an editable blank form for their use?
Probably someone in Hawaii originally.
could be you 2 are using different version of Illustrator or have different settings on them.
I have only played with Illustrator/ photohop ect but I would not be surprised that it could automatically being doing that when you open the file trying to detected Text and signatures and giving you the ability to remove/move them easily for editing purposes.
Hell I while I was working I scanned in a document and used software to pull of my signature and save it so i could easily attached it to other documents I was emailing out. Mind you some security got embeded in the file when I was putting it on other PDFs.
could be any number of reasons.
Naw, it's far more likely that I'm a liar.
You said you opened the file in Indesign which is what sparked my interest, because that's something you can't technically do. We've already established long ago that you're untrustworthy, so it's fair to be suspicious.
Sure there are. Been designing since before you were born. This file does not have layers. It has objects within one group. A document created in 1961 will have been scanned, possible inadvertently split into sections as it's not even a linked group or even a compound path. MattSepata is correct to some extent, but I doubt it's been OCRed. Just a crappily-made PDF... which hasn't even been security-locked.
Nice try, but no cookie, Sherlock.
WTF are you talking about? I'm not 'trying' anything. You're just pointing out how ignorant and blinded by bias you really are by your attacks on me. I specifically made the post so that someone could explain it to the rest of us, after specifically explaining I thought there was almost certainly a reasonable explanation. You see what you want to see, nothing more. Amazing that anyone ever wonders why conservatives never stay around these parts, your level of debate is at rock bottom. Amusing, but sad as always, Blue.
To help 5P understand: Government can not do anything right, not even scan a document and make a lousy secured PDF :p:p
;) Clearly.
Is there an explanation for why it matters to you and all the birthers who buy into this nonsense? I'd love to know which right-wing website had instructions for birthers wanting to "test" the image in Illustrator. It's pretty obvious you were following some fringe-website instructions. I highly doubt you just "happened" to open it in Illustrator and then do whatever. I mean, you aren't a graphic designer.
Buy into what nonsense? What did I BUY into? I simply asked so that I would know. I guess asking logical questions makes you a raging bible-thumping birther neo con. ;) Also, Inever said I 'happened' top open it in Illustrator. I saw it on Drudge, and thought to myself... 'no way, they wouldn't make that big of a mistake' meaning, give the birthers such obvious ammunition... so I tested it myself. Thanks for pointing out your same sick desire to twist everything I say just like Lee and Blue.
FearlessFreep
Apr 11, 01:31 PM
I still don't get why people just don't follow the components to figure out the timing. If the touchscreen size is indeed going to change, then it has to be manufactured in sufficient quantity before launch. Otherwise you end up with not enough product in the pipeline to meet demand (see Ipad, 2).
There's outside factors at work here as well - namely the Japan disaster which has constrained supplies.
Apple may not have any choice but to wait until Fall.
There's outside factors at work here as well - namely the Japan disaster which has constrained supplies.
Apple may not have any choice but to wait until Fall.
Hugh
Mar 22, 09:33 PM
The U.N. Security Council perhaps, but not the entire assembly. It would have been interesting to open that issue up to debate and seen how all the members would have voted.
What I always wonder is what diplomatic efforts were used to pressure Qaddafi? There were no (as far as I know) threats of economic embargoes, freezing of assets, or other less violent methods to coerce Qaddafi. We didn't need to convince him to step dow. We simply needed to convince him that he needed to tone down, defend himself against the armed insurrection, but not cast a wider and violent campaign against innocent civilians.
I need a clearer demonstration that serious steps were taken before resorting to war. War should be used as the last resort and only when it's clear that all other options have failed.
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What I always wonder is what diplomatic efforts were used to pressure Qaddafi? There were no (as far as I know) threats of economic embargoes, freezing of assets, or other less violent methods to coerce Qaddafi. We didn't need to convince him to step dow. We simply needed to convince him that he needed to tone down, defend himself against the armed insurrection, but not cast a wider and violent campaign against innocent civilians.
I need a clearer demonstration that serious steps were taken before resorting to war. War should be used as the last resort and only when it's clear that all other options have failed.
Nuck81
Dec 1, 11:18 AM
Cool thanks. I will give this a try. Anything to get this bus done. I hate the tasks where whatever it is you are driving is real slow!
Heh, if you like driving the bus, you'll LOVE the next two races at Top Gear...
Heh, if you like driving the bus, you'll LOVE the next two races at Top Gear...
jlewis2k1
Aug 11, 11:41 AM
am i the only one here that really thinks this is just a pathetic to even think apple is coming out with a phone? Personally, I can not see apple coming out with one. Honestly, I'm quite sick of hearing all of these posts about potential iPhone stuff. i just dont believe it would happen.
a.gomez
Apr 6, 02:37 PM
It'll be 100,001 when it comes out in the UK when mine gets delivered..... Roll on Saturday!:D
100,002
my cousin got his from Costco last night - he was waiting for the Wi-Fi only one
100,002
my cousin got his from Costco last night - he was waiting for the Wi-Fi only one
shawnce
Aug 7, 11:32 PM
So it's fair to say that developers have received their copy of Leopard? Folks that attend WWDC get the Mac OS X Leopord preview and ADC members with seed keys will likely get it within a couple weeks to a month.
GoodWatch
Apr 6, 02:16 PM
Topics like this one are just a showcase for Apple's dominating brilliance (but they don't need this) and a watering hole for Apple fanboys. Buzzwords: Apple great, competition crappy and MS :p
dclocke
Sep 19, 09:41 AM
I don't know how many times we have to go round and round with this here. I've been on MacRumors since '01 and it's always the same-old, same-old. It's not legitimate. It's "I-wantism." You have no basis to believe that a Rev B would be more "stabled and refined." That's a hope, backed by nothing -- and nothing Apple ever comments on, either. The bottom line is that you can hope if you want, and you can wait if you want, but to bash Apple for being slow on the trigger, and to make the argument that Meroms are amazing and Yonahs are crap is, frankly, horse manure. Like I said, 64 bit is pretty irrelevant for most users, and the speed and battery differences are quite negligible. And the argument that Apple is losing tons of sales to PC manufactuers is, frankly, laughable too.
Well, I've been on MacRumors since last week and I'm already tired of posts telling me what I really need. I don't recall seeing posts saying Yonah was crap. Most people just want to feel like they are making a good investment on an expensive piece of equipment that may be around for 3-4+ years. I would like a laptop with a 64-bit processor. Period. I don't care what you think I need. The problem with posts like this are that they waste my time, and the time of other users who are looking for information on the release of the new MBP models.
Edit: I should add, however, that if anyone is willing to donate the money for me to purchase a new MBP, I will gladly accept all advice on said purchase.
Well, I've been on MacRumors since last week and I'm already tired of posts telling me what I really need. I don't recall seeing posts saying Yonah was crap. Most people just want to feel like they are making a good investment on an expensive piece of equipment that may be around for 3-4+ years. I would like a laptop with a 64-bit processor. Period. I don't care what you think I need. The problem with posts like this are that they waste my time, and the time of other users who are looking for information on the release of the new MBP models.
Edit: I should add, however, that if anyone is willing to donate the money for me to purchase a new MBP, I will gladly accept all advice on said purchase.
MacBoobsPro
Jul 20, 08:55 AM
I agree, increasing the number of cores can't be the only solution on long term. In my opinion it's time to rethink CPUs: Single, maybe dual core, high processing* power with extremly low power consumption, much lower than we have nowadays.
* Whatever that exactly means, I don't know.
Is having more cores more energy efficient than having one big fat ass 24Ghz processor? Maybe thats a factor in the increasing core count.
* Whatever that exactly means, I don't know.
Is having more cores more energy efficient than having one big fat ass 24Ghz processor? Maybe thats a factor in the increasing core count.
Kane.Elson
Jul 29, 03:42 AM
Love this news. Just what I was expecting and one of the main reasons to have waited for Core 2 Duo mobile Macs. :)
Ahh the rewards of waiting.
The performance increase and the 64-bit sounded good but this just makes me grin about the fact that I waited. I can never get enough battery life.
Ahh the rewards of waiting.
The performance increase and the 64-bit sounded good but this just makes me grin about the fact that I waited. I can never get enough battery life.
dernhelm
Nov 29, 07:24 AM
Perhaps that lost money isn't due to pirating like the execs want you to think.
Sure it is. Its just that the everyday Joe isn't the pirate, the music distribution executives are. And there's only room for one pirate ship in this industry.
Sure it is. Its just that the everyday Joe isn't the pirate, the music distribution executives are. And there's only room for one pirate ship in this industry.
hulugu
Apr 27, 11:19 PM
Can you name ONE person here who suggested its a forgery?
Right, you typically dig through government documents looking for goofy layers (or object) and you're just asking questions about this one document which happens to prove that Obama was born in the United States.
What I find remarkable is you were one of the ones arguing that all Obama has to do is show the long-form document and now that the White House has, you're still arguing about the document. It's a fair question to wonder why there are layers in a document, but you can't honestly say that such a question doesn't lead down a path that would logically come to the conclusion that a document was a forgery.
Am I a liar? I have no idea if you're doing it right, or if you are even using Illustrator, or if the PDF was replaced with a single-layer/object one. Just do a Google search for 'obama birth certificate layers' and you'll see that I'm not the only one who downloaded a file with multiple layers or objects or whatever.
It seems like it changes depending on the settings and edition of Creative Suite you have.
I'm quite sure that my rare posts in this forum have little to do with what you and your army think of this forum...besides, my milkshake brings all the boys to the yard.
Yeah it does. ;)
It'd be fascinating to see how much people cared about 'layers' if the documents in question related to Bush's National Guard deployment or something similar. ;) Haha, no bias here boys!
The difference between me and you is that I'd want an explanation in either account. ;)
Those hypotheticals make for easy arguments. You do have a bias against Obama and you should just admit it. When a document comes around that runs counter to your worldview make sure you ask the same kinds of questions.
Right, you typically dig through government documents looking for goofy layers (or object) and you're just asking questions about this one document which happens to prove that Obama was born in the United States.
What I find remarkable is you were one of the ones arguing that all Obama has to do is show the long-form document and now that the White House has, you're still arguing about the document. It's a fair question to wonder why there are layers in a document, but you can't honestly say that such a question doesn't lead down a path that would logically come to the conclusion that a document was a forgery.
Am I a liar? I have no idea if you're doing it right, or if you are even using Illustrator, or if the PDF was replaced with a single-layer/object one. Just do a Google search for 'obama birth certificate layers' and you'll see that I'm not the only one who downloaded a file with multiple layers or objects or whatever.
It seems like it changes depending on the settings and edition of Creative Suite you have.
I'm quite sure that my rare posts in this forum have little to do with what you and your army think of this forum...besides, my milkshake brings all the boys to the yard.
Yeah it does. ;)
It'd be fascinating to see how much people cared about 'layers' if the documents in question related to Bush's National Guard deployment or something similar. ;) Haha, no bias here boys!
The difference between me and you is that I'd want an explanation in either account. ;)
Those hypotheticals make for easy arguments. You do have a bias against Obama and you should just admit it. When a document comes around that runs counter to your worldview make sure you ask the same kinds of questions.
briansolomon
Jul 14, 05:26 PM
It's about time. For a company that prides itself on innovations, features, and ease of use this is something that should not just be coming to fruition now...and should have never been eliminated from the G5 during the change from G4 <<<weird wording but I think you all will get the idea
Bosunsfate
Aug 8, 12:46 AM
Well I for one was kind of disappointed. Leopard is sort of Apple's chance to prove they can out-Vista Vista, and I'm not really sure what we saw today does it. I've been following Vista somewhat closely, and it really does catch Windows up to OS X in terms of features and prettiness.
I really think most of the features shown off today are already present in Windows (I've definitely heard about all of them before) or will be in Vista, and it's too bad Apple didn't have anything truly innovative to show us. Hopefully those secret features are something good...
I have seen plenty of beta Vista versions and they have nothing like Spaces or Time Machine....or frankly anything I saw today.
Why don't you point out something specific rather blather on with such nonsense.
I really think most of the features shown off today are already present in Windows (I've definitely heard about all of them before) or will be in Vista, and it's too bad Apple didn't have anything truly innovative to show us. Hopefully those secret features are something good...
I have seen plenty of beta Vista versions and they have nothing like Spaces or Time Machine....or frankly anything I saw today.
Why don't you point out something specific rather blather on with such nonsense.
dwero
Jun 9, 03:29 AM
When called #639*, I got the news that 16GB for $199 and 32GB for $299.
That's suck
That's suck
Dammit Cubs
Apr 7, 01:09 AM
Wow. I have a mac book air 11 inch (WHICH I ABSOLUTELY LOVE) and this is so tempting. I recently bought a macbook air AND mac mini.
Sometimes I'd wish I waited for these sandy bridges. I love Core IANYTHING.
Sometimes I'd wish I waited for these sandy bridges. I love Core IANYTHING.
cjoy
Apr 25, 02:47 PM
Maybe I'm missing something, but so what if they can tell what cell phone tower you're by??? Are you really so important/ secrative that someone knowing your location is that big of a deal?
it looks like a different world from today,
but really it's less than 70 years ago that we had the NAZI regime here in germany. it's less than 25 years ago that we had an repressive surveillance society in east germany. if there is no apparent good in tracking personal data, one should object to it.
you shouldn't have to reason against collecting and storing personal data if it isnt a real necessity.
there's enough data stored about you, me and anyone in todays digitalized world as is.
it looks like a different world from today,
but really it's less than 70 years ago that we had the NAZI regime here in germany. it's less than 25 years ago that we had an repressive surveillance society in east germany. if there is no apparent good in tracking personal data, one should object to it.
you shouldn't have to reason against collecting and storing personal data if it isnt a real necessity.
there's enough data stored about you, me and anyone in todays digitalized world as is.
After G
Aug 25, 11:26 PM
I guess I am lucky, but I haven't had problems through all the Macs I have bought. It may be because I haven't bought rev A of any product.
The eMac was 2nd gen. No problems.
The iBook was 2nd to last gen. No problems.
And the Intel Mac mini is just an internals change. We'll wait and see.
If my Intel mini conks out unexpectedly, I will give Apple one more chance, because they haven't worked with Intel hardware extensively like PPC hardware.
At the same time, there is a price to pay for lower prices. Would you be willing to pay premiums for quality? I'm glad Apples are cheaper, but not glad about the downturn in quality. I think I would pay a bit more for quality, myself.
The eMac was 2nd gen. No problems.
The iBook was 2nd to last gen. No problems.
And the Intel Mac mini is just an internals change. We'll wait and see.
If my Intel mini conks out unexpectedly, I will give Apple one more chance, because they haven't worked with Intel hardware extensively like PPC hardware.
At the same time, there is a price to pay for lower prices. Would you be willing to pay premiums for quality? I'm glad Apples are cheaper, but not glad about the downturn in quality. I think I would pay a bit more for quality, myself.
MrCrowbar
Aug 27, 10:03 AM
This is what we NEED:
1. Computer with no fan. Quiet. Silent. CRITICAL.
2. Modular computer to add a gorgeous Apple Cinema Display.
3. At lesat two FireWire 800 ports.
Then all the rest (power, etc).
1. My iMac Core Duo 17" was very quiet. Never heard the fans except using photoshop under rosetta, playing 3D games under XP and during the hardware test. Those fans are powerful when required, make noise like a big hair dryer and you think the computer's gonna lift off and fly away. But on normal use all you hear is the hard drive. I had a desk that happened to resonnate at the frequency of the hard drive which was horrible, but when put on the corner of the desk it was fine. You could crack it open and replace the noisy Maxtor drive with a Seagate Barracuda if you want the absolute silent computer.
2. I hooked up a 20" Dell Screen to the iMac. Worked nicely. the iMac supports up to 23" in dual screen mode.
3. Only has a Firewire 400 Port. You won't get dual 800 on iMac... get a Mac Pro. You could put it in another room, make a hole in the wall for the screen cable and firewire cables and use wireless keyboards and mouses. ;)
1. Computer with no fan. Quiet. Silent. CRITICAL.
2. Modular computer to add a gorgeous Apple Cinema Display.
3. At lesat two FireWire 800 ports.
Then all the rest (power, etc).
1. My iMac Core Duo 17" was very quiet. Never heard the fans except using photoshop under rosetta, playing 3D games under XP and during the hardware test. Those fans are powerful when required, make noise like a big hair dryer and you think the computer's gonna lift off and fly away. But on normal use all you hear is the hard drive. I had a desk that happened to resonnate at the frequency of the hard drive which was horrible, but when put on the corner of the desk it was fine. You could crack it open and replace the noisy Maxtor drive with a Seagate Barracuda if you want the absolute silent computer.
2. I hooked up a 20" Dell Screen to the iMac. Worked nicely. the iMac supports up to 23" in dual screen mode.
3. Only has a Firewire 400 Port. You won't get dual 800 on iMac... get a Mac Pro. You could put it in another room, make a hole in the wall for the screen cable and firewire cables and use wireless keyboards and mouses. ;)
CaoCao
Feb 28, 08:33 PM
Now you've stopped stating opinions and walked into fact territory.
CITATION NEEDED!
Has anyone ever been truly 'cured' of homosexuality? You need to produce empirical evidence. Notably brain scans showing the arousal of a homosexual to people of his same sex before and after this 'treatment.'
If you can produce that evidence, I will be satisfied that homosexuality is a treatable condition. Until then, I'm just assuming that you're stating dogma as fact to make reprehensible claims.
I said "Both cases are untreatable."
CITATION NEEDED!
Has anyone ever been truly 'cured' of homosexuality? You need to produce empirical evidence. Notably brain scans showing the arousal of a homosexual to people of his same sex before and after this 'treatment.'
If you can produce that evidence, I will be satisfied that homosexuality is a treatable condition. Until then, I'm just assuming that you're stating dogma as fact to make reprehensible claims.
I said "Both cases are untreatable."
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